>>>>>>>>>>> And why should anyone accept> anything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman> (or women) as "a hooker. While Polanski is the master ofparanoia, The Ninth Gate had too many things wrong with it. The lost of public phones booths will kill off Superman, Dr. Who, and Colin Farrell roles. The woman who had tried to warn Bill intervenes and insists on redeeming him, at an undisclosed personal cost. He discovers an underground sexual group and attends one of their meetings -- and quickly discovers that he is in over his head. If he wereZiegler, wouldn't he instead be going out of his way to privatelycommunicate with Bill, to get Bill out of Somerton as quickly aspossible in order to avoid any possible trouble (and as Zieglersubsequently admits, Bill's gate-crashing 'made me look like acomplete fool')? No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" Ironically, that is just what power (and Ziegler)would want you to believe - that the world of power and power elitesdoesn't exist, is just all a charade anyway, that those who dorecognise the realities of social power and of desire are justparanoid conspiracy nutters (when in fact it is those whoattribute all that occurs in the film to 'a dream' who are beingproperly paranoid). He only ultimately accepts Ziegler's account because itgives him a convenient alibi (as well as because of Ziegler's powerfulposition - Bill is Ziegler's man, obeying his orders, subscribing tothe demands and realities of Ziegler's world). -- Steven L.Email: [email protected] the NOSPAM before replying to me. In contrast, why does the masked woman seeminglyalready know much more than they do? It's a kind of dissassociation from reality, and an obsessive flight of ideas, into endless, words and meta-words. But it isn't clear at all, and nobody in the film refers to the eventsat Somerton as a 'party.'<<<<<<<. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, -- Dennis/Endyhttp://home.comcast.net/~endymion91/~I was born to rock the boat. So if instead, he replayed Alice's voice (or Ziegler's voice) thiswould 'prove' that the body was that of Alice (or Ziegler)? It is also perhaps worth pointing out that the Somerton events, thoughso described in countless reviews and commentaries on the film - arenot accurately called an orgy, as that would imply that female, inaddition to male, sexual desire would find free expression at such anevent. Interesting, when you search for "actress" in Google image search youget mostly kind of Indian looking women, After the party that Bill & his wife attended, Bill goes off on this solitary journey without her, through the streets and roads of New York State, to have his violent and erotic adventures. But which'party' is Bill referring to? One intriguing reading of the Eyes Wide Shutmask being on the pillow is that it's only in Bill's head as if he's exhausted by trying to hide his attempts at infidelity or true feelings from Alice, leading to an emotional breakdown. Tragically it was the director's final film with Kubrick dying less than a week after screening an incomplete cut for the studio and its stars. I agree though, he hadnt made a defintiive connection yet. > Take another listen. We could say that even Nick was in on it and the phone call to Nick in the Jazz club was a set up to pique Bill's interest, even letting Bill knows the password. -Herodotus, You do not have permission to delete messages in this group, Either email addresses are anonymous for this group or you need the view member email addresses permission to view the original message, I thought the woman who ODd at the dance party (Mandy), the woman who, Well, in the interview with "Mandy" - I don't care to look up her name, Here is a youtube video of "Mandy" (Julienne Davis), singing in her band, I sent a message to the YouTube person who hosted those "Mandy" videos if. Even had Alice found it in the cadenza, would she have recognized it as meaningful and taken it? Bill was not yet sure it was Mandy from the bathroom, till he happened to see the news story and saw the name "Amanda," then it started to come together. As 1999 approached, what little was known about Eyes Wide Shut was almost indecently tantalising. The 'mystery' is how SHE knows that he is an interloper. Same voice. I enjoy the > mystery entirely and will return to it over and over and could watch the > film again and again.>, >>>>>>>>>>>>> And if this firgure was Ziegler, why would he subsequently> send a naked masked woman over to Bill for his benefit? A powerful man realizes one night that his wife has had not one but myriad >What else could> he call it? Plus there is *no* *way* that a rare bookdealer would smoke anywhere near a book of which there are only threecopies in existence. Somerton could hardly be > >>>>>> described (and. What a joke to call them "philosophers." "My Sex Slave video with Chinese subtitles"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjMIROKzH7s, ZKD 788-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4N4vSijHTM, Im Treibhaus (Wesendonck Lieder) - Richard Wagner - Faynehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOhxWdGuQd4, When he claps his hands together. There are many aspects of it that ARE still a mystery such as I was suggesting with the costume. <<<<<<< So if instead, he replayed Alice's voice (or Ziegler's voice) this> would 'prove' that the body was that of Alice (or Ziegler)? > But the credits have Abigail Good as> "mysterious woman" and Julienne Davis as Mandy. And even if it was clear, even if he hadreferred directly to the events of the night before as the (Somerton)party, it would still be uncertain, because. >>>>>>>>>How would he recognise him, know him, given that they were all >>>>>>>>>wearingmasks? "anachoronistic Deleuze and Guattari? > But I agree the way it is done is brilliant and it leaves all of us unsure > of everything, opening up infinite possibilites as to what it all means. Its common sense he was referring to Somerton as the party. >In a big crowd of masked people, Zeigler (his eyes give away who he is), So why didn't Bill also recognise the identity of this masked figureon the basis of his eyes?<<<<<<<<<<<<. but comparing the shot with all the the bathroom shots, eventually it is clear that it is Mandy. I trhink Steven Lizberger is right. > Mandy was not the same woman. The movie went through post-production following Stanley Kubrick's death, though some have argued about how much it represents his intended vision. When Bill goes to the hospital, he asks to see patient Amanda Curren (sp), the name he saw in the newspaper. No comments. The point, however, is that even if all three female'characters' are the same woman (and so, effectively, the samecharacter), this serves to set up even more contradictions, not tomention buying in to Ziegler's warped, patriarchal world. 0. Can it really compete with Rupert? Eyes Wide Shut: What The Mask On The Pillow Means, Every Stanley Kubrick Movie Ranked, Worst To Best, The Shining: Why Stanley Kubrick Changed Stephen King's Story, Why Pirates of the Caribbean Producer Wants Johnny Depp Back, Chris Pratt Joins Luigi Actor To Troll Super Mario Bros. Movie Voice Critics. And isn't this the mistake that many of the film's> critics made, reading Ziegler's story as 'ruining' the mystery,> desublimating the film's narrative by means of an all-neat-and-tidy> denouement? How? The silence of the empty mind, like the silent empty space we see in 2001, is the best path to curing your mania. "you are going to need some rehab," she says, "I > know.". Indeed, the film iscentrally concerned with the failure of a 'male-centric' andpatriarchal ideology to deal with female desire; and the narrativethrust of the film revolves around Bill's increasingly hopelessefforts to flee from (but also to copy and avenge) Alice's desire, adesire from which he is completely excluded, just as he is laterexcluded from the desire-space of the power-elite at Somerton. People were dancing, there was music wearing costumes, and although it was strange, calling it a "party," would not be unusual in the slightest. ", > I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you, > mean,> but the way you're saying it is silly. > >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." >He also must have recognized> the voice, considering that her voice is somewhat deep and throaty with a> tinge of distinctive accent. --alt.flame Special Forces"All successful software gets changed." > anything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligible > mumbling),<<<, > No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare > kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" But then, Ziegler's 'explanation', his retconningof past events, only serves to further propel Bill into subjectivedestitution, another 'replay' of Bill's unmasking at Somerton, Zieglerpower-presiding over Bill's position and status at a red pool-tablemuch like Red Cloak presided over the power ritual on a red carpet atSomerton. Models at the party attended by the Royal Family. > > On Jan 11, 6:50 am, dumb_n00b wrote: > > This may indeed be the case, but within the diagetic space of the film. > it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." >>What else could he call it? Even Ziegler only uses that wordin reference to his own earlier party, while referring to the Somertonrituals always more elusively: "I was there, at the House", "what ifwhat happened was a fake, a charade", etc, but no mention of any'party' at Somerton. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. Milich even tried to talk Bill into renting a more colorful costume. I am normally the last guy in theworld to criticize somebody for using big words, but, besides that you'renot bothering, even, to use them correctly, the way that you are using themserves to obfuscate rather than clarify your meaning. [Some irrelevant pseudo-Buddhist gibberish snipped]. WebEyes Wide Shut (1999) Abigail Good: Mysterious Woman, Masked Party Principal Showing all 3 items Jump to: Quotes (3) Quotes Mysterious Woman : Stop! 2. > Even Sk was not perfect in that way-----or was hethere is another > mystery. When we see the news article about dead Mandy, it says "Beauty Queen"but how did Bill know that was the same woman who ODd or helped him atthe orgy, since he never knew the real name of either? > First of all, Mandy must have felt some connection with Bill since he was > showing her concern and kindness in the Bathroom. However, the lack of one may have saved the life of gangster Vincent (Mad Dog) Coll (various movies). that Bill first makes this connection, or at least, has> it confirmed by someone else (Ziegler)", > Ditto. And if it's *not* supposed to be obvious, thatmeans that Polanski screwed up. > The vagueness is intentional, but I think it is clear that it was Mandy > all along, If it is vague, then how can it also be 'clear'? >> If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade.>>, >>>>>>>>>>>That would not be valuable or insightful speculation, but a total> denial of most of what happens in the film (another variation of 'it's> all just a dream', everything being attributable to the delusions of> Bill's mind, a denial of the world of social power, similar to saying> that everything that happens to Jack Torrance in The Shining is all> 'in his mind'). The point, however, is that even if all three female'characters' are the same woman (and so, effectively, the samecharacter), this serves to set up even more contradictions, not tomention buying in to Ziegler's warped, patriarchal world."<<<<<<<<<<. It's pronounced Paw-rick, not Pad-raig. 1. He did not know who she was: she was wearinga mask. However, as we might imagine, there were many who believed his death was far from natural. Desire is always Other. >Bill was not yet sure it was Mandy from> the bathroom, till he happened to see the news story and saw the name> "Amanda," then it started to come together. This is Eyes Wide Shut revisited. I think this feeling of > guilt and outrage at a murder, would be the first thing on his mind. He is not exactly > voicing his thoughts. Which all suggests that Ziegler didn't actually knowabout Bill's presence at Somerton until he removed his mask <<<<<<<<<<<<. What is interesting is that the film's very ambiguity concerning theidentities of the three women (Mandy, masked woman, woman in morgue),sets up a desire to 'fill in' all the film's narrative gaps anddeadlocks, a desire to shut down such uncertainty, to give - just likeZiegler - an easy, 'commonsensical' black and white 'explanation' ofevents. You saw > her volunteer to sacrifice herself so the orgy managers would let Doctor > Cruise go free.>> If the woman in the mask had been the same woman as Mandy, you would have > expected some recognition of that from Doctor Cruise. or psychotherapists. <<<<<<<<<<<>. Deleuze probably realized how stupid he was before he jumped out that window. MYMENU MYMENU Masquerade Mask For Couples ", "Victor what can I say. And isn't this the mistake that many of the film'scritics made, reading Ziegler's story as 'ruining' the mystery,desublimating the film's narrative by means of an all-neat-and-tidydenouement? > I am still on the side of those who think SK left that scene of the > reflection of the sound man holding the boom mike at his crotch, in the > crome tub enclosure, on purpose, that the DVD edited out. People and Masks: The Meaning of Eyes Wide Shut. Well thats all true, but of course that was SK making a masterpiece and one of the most amazing films ever made IMO. ">> "Victor what can I say. And Milich was expecting him. Her pubic hair is trimmed just like Mandy's Pubic hair. > If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade. >Even in the morgue he still might not have been positive, but he replays >her voice in his head while looking over the body. > The way Zeigler confirms it was Mandy is matter of fact and it isn't as > though Bill seemed surprised at this--even if the audience might still be > confused.>, > 2. Let him go! ">> "I saw her body in the morgue. I am still on the side of those who think SK left that scene of the reflection of the sound man holding the boom mike at his crotch, in the crome tub enclosure, on purpose, that the DVD edited out. "Kelpzoidzl" wrote in message news:[email protected] "Kelpzoidzl" wrote in message. That is a possible explanation. It is as if he Wanted, as if hedesired, compelled, it to be so again, its at two - simultaneousbut contradictory - levels (as ALWAYS in many of Kubrick's films -like in The Shining: are the spectral ghosts 'real' or is Jack etcimagining them? ", "They were nutcases. The rhizomatic uncertainties and> > uncanny inconsistencies multiply >> "Rhizomatic uncertainties"?>> I actually had to look that up. >, but, besides that you're> not bothering, even, to use them correctly, the way that you are using them> serves to obfuscate rather than clarify your meaning. But then again when Superman puts on a pair of plain eyeglassesLois Lane, or anyone else fails to recognize him as Clark Kent! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. reinforced bythe simple observation that you have never actually posted here before[at least under your supplied handle/ID]. Put on some headphones and listen. Tom Cruise in the Masked Ball ritual scene from Stanley Kubrick's masterpiece Eyes Wide Shut with Jocelyn Pook's haunting score filling the temple. andpleading with her to take off her mask? He could choose to call it many things, but 'party'? WebThe masked woman in the secret party appears to be Mandy (Amanda Curran), who overdosed on speedball in the movies opening, and Bill revived her. Being "all a Charade," doesn't mean it was all a dream. Other interpretations are floating around, including the idea Alice was also at the party, and while there's no set meaning for how the mask got on that pillow, the idea Alice put it there herself seems to be the prevailing theory. In Eyes Wide Shut, Abigail Good plays a `Mysterious Woman'. Like much of the director's work like The Shining, movie fans love to debate the symbolism and meaning of Eyes Wide Shut. and then Bill says, "..you can't keep doing this," Mandy says, "Ya." Ironically, that is just what power (and Ziegler)> would want you to believe - that the world of power and power elites> doesn't exist, is just all a charade anyway, that those who do> recognise the realities of social power and of desire are just> paranoid conspiracy nutters (when in fact it is those who> attribute all that occurs in the film to 'a dream' who are being> properly paranoid). The lower part is made of paper-mache, while the upper one Even Sk was not perfect in that way-----or was hethere is the mystery. Bill Harford doesn't really showmuch recognition in th emorgue scene. >In a big crowd of masked> people, Zeigler (his eyes give away who he is). I never siad Bill recognized him.we get to recognize him when we study it. Yes, the three scenes - at Ziegler's party, at the Somerton ritualthe following night, and at the hospital morgue the next day - thatfeature Mandy/the 'masked woman' - remain ambiguous to the end. Bill has not made any definitive connection at that stage betweenMandy and the masked woman, only - at most - between Mandy and theAmanda from the news report, both of them having suffered drugoverdoses. news:[email protected] > Harry writes: (seen on google)>> >>> 1. so drugged out as to have been clearly incapable of making sense >> >>> of>>> anything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligible >> mumbling),<<<>, >> No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare >> kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. You're coming across as yet another FUCKING TROLL!! At what point do we decide whether Corpse Mandy's very slight, single frame, mini-wink and subsequent eye movement was intended? He also must have recognized the voice, considering that her voice is somewhat deep and throaty with a tinge of distinctive accent. 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